Interviewee: Immediately see something that is going to be perfect.

Interviewer: Right.

Interviewee: From my experience, it is always a collaborative effort. It is always sitting down and doing it in steps so that they see their ideas and there is a back and forth about what is not quite right, and what is. And I find that clients do not -- a lot of times they just want to hire you and just say “okay, do you want to see it?”

Interviewer: Go create something in --

Interviewee: Right, but they want to see it and they want it to match with their thinking.

Interviewer: Right, which is -- also a mind reader is impossible.

Interviewee: Right. And so, I tell a lot of the clients I work with, I have to tell them, you know, when they see the first thing and they are always saying “now, this is not what I had in mind”

Interviewer: Right.

Interviewee: It is like you have to say, “I know that, but we have to have a place to start from”.

Interviewer: Right.

Interviewee: It is point A and with collaboration with hearing, okay, what is it that is not working in this for you? What is it that is working in this for you? Then, you can come across with something that is a win-win because it is all about getting nailing down the message you are trying to put across. And, I have worked with people who do not understand that part.

Interviewer: They do not get it?

Interviewee: Yes. When they see the first thing, they are like ah, ah, and they want to run.

Interviewer: So the thing with me is I usually have a good ideas to what I want but I also do not approach marketing with an ego and so I rely on somebody like you to tell me what you see, maybe what I think I want is not actually what I need,

Interviewee: Yes.

Interviewer: Sometimes, what I think I want is just wrong and you know, someone like you can point out something like that or maybe just through the exchange, I realize how it is right and you are going to help me get there.

Interviewee: Aha.

Interviewer: It is a very, you know, it is a large grey area that is hard to grasp,

Interviewee: Right.

Interviewer: For a lot of people.

Interviewee: That is very subjective. Somebody looks at it and they just have their idea and it takes lot of back and forth.

Interviewer: But it is a -- but if it works, it works usually well, you know, and I think that we have got a great system working now where,

Interviewee: Yes.

Interviewer: You know, we balance things back to forth and,

Interviewee: Yes.

Interviewer: I am usually what comes from that is something better, you know. So -- and the projects that we worked on, I will get that. We will figured it out. [Laughs]

Interviewee: Yes, right, they are fun.

Interviewer: That email you sent (voice overlap) I think she lost her mind.

Interviewee: That’s a lot of people to say that.

Interviewer: Yes. But that is okay because that is okay, you know, it is about art and it is about stretching it out, you know, we talked about the work he did with Disney? Well I mean, I heard, what is his name? Castenburg? I heard him talk about how they would sit in a room, back in the days they were doing Aladdin and Beauty and the Beast, you know they were sitting in a room, they all sit around and basically, throw out ideas and anything goes. The crazier, the better because ultimately, you kind of hone in on what to work, and it is like that with marketing, you have to go there and say, what if, then eventually you realize you are back in at similarly. Can not quite go there but maybe we can go to here.

Interviewee: Right.

Interviewer: How far can we push it, before it is --

Interviewee: And see, that is where the fun is.

Interviewer: It is, it is, because if you can bring something interesting in to it, something humorous, without offending you know, when we did the billboard campaign with the Rothwiellers, all I wanted was a campaign that basically tell people that we handle dog accident cases, what kind of dog am I going to put up there? I can not put a poodle, or a Maltese, although I could. I thought to put a Taco Bell dog up there, you know, Ciero, Abagao, you know, but I wanted a vicious looking dog. You have a Pitbull, you have a Rothwieller you have -- so we put a Rothwieller up there. Well, little bit I know that I will get hate mail from Rothwieller owners. That was discriminating against the worthy breed, I am not against Rothwielers.

Interviewee: And that is also a good part of our work.

Interviewer: I have Doberman pinschers, I had German shepherds but it is an ad, what do you think?

Interviewee: It is a good part of art work that you are using -- when you draw something, you do not have to make it something looks so identifiable.

Interviewer: That is true.

Interviewee: That you are not going to get --

Interviewer: But it work against me here because what I did was we took a Rothwieller a drawing and of course we made the teeth a little sharper, and I think we may -- we made blood, I do not even remember, we made a look pretty scary but the point is, it is a billboard, and anybody that knows anything about advertising knows a billboard ad is not a yellow page ad. You have got a few seconds to catch somebody’s eye, the driving by, the running bus, if they do not look up covers say what the hell, you failed. You threw your money away.

Interviewee: Right.

Interviewer: So the whole point was to get in the city billboard and then, absorb the message, bitten by a dog, bite back, that is it, that is the message, that is advertising and you know, it is whatever it is.

Interviewee: That is a split second.

Interviewer: That is marketing, if you can not get their attention --

Interviewee: You have lost the opportunity.

Interviewer: Whether they are turning the page or they are driving around, you have got a few seconds. That is it.